Crits, Critting and Critters

[rflong]

I don't often (i.e. try never) do serious writerly blog entries. I'm more of a here's this meme and the weird video I picked up on YouTube, and have a brief insight into my somewhat twisted writing mind, here's why I'm not writing because life has interfered and here is the new way one of my children chose to totally embarrass me in public yet again.

But something happened the other evening that has been playing on my mind a bit.

I'm a great believer in critiquing for others. It helps everyone and its a small way of paying it forward etc. I'm a member of a number of online groups at this stage. Some I frequent more than others, but that's mainly for the gossip! :D

So, I was doing a critique of a novella for a friend. She's a relatively new writer, works really hard and has a lot of promise (coz like I'm the big expert an' all! Yup!). She has done a fair bit of critiquing for me and has been really helpful. All was well and good. I finished critiquing her first draft (which she had warned me was fairly rough) and sent it back to her. I then pm'ed her and apologized for covering her lovely manuscript with virtual red pen and asked were we still friends (Captain paranoia strikes again). We had a good laugh over it and all was well.

A couple of night later she pm's me to essentially ask, was the novella actually awful and were you just being nice? (answer: No. I'm not nice. Ask my hubby!) She had received three critiques on it - one from her regular CP, one from me and one from someone else (two new critters). Her CP and I went through it thoroughly, did the usually and summarized what we found.

The third person tore the piece apart, line by line, leaving her with pages and pages of edits for the first chapter alone! My friend was devastated. It was all complimented by comments such as the critiquer could tell my friend was a new writer because it was all so bad, with glaring grammatical mistakes and plot holes (er, no, not really. And it was clearly stated to be a rough draft) and, my favorite, the critiquer was doing her a favour by being like this as in the publishing world, one needs to develop a thick skin.

Er... Hello? When did being mean become a criteria for critiquing?

Because that is mean.

The thick skin comes from publishers and rejections, not from someone else venting their pettiness on your work. I have encountered this before. It seems like everyone has at some point. The only real solution is to mail back a polite "thanks very much" and never open it again (preferably drop it in the trash). Sure the critiquer could have been having a bad day, but really that should have nothing to do with the story. There's this thing? Called Professionalism? I'm not doing the hand holding, group hugs "why can't we all get along", pom-pom waving cheer squad but honestly - why bother if you are going to be so negative? It doesn't help anyone.

Actually come to think of it I had a similar one with Puzzlebox but I have come to the stage of just shrugging them off now. I tend to ignore them and never ask again. Neither do I offer as I've invariably found that critiquers like this should take their own advice. Main thing to always remember is that it is your story. You're the one telling it so you get to decide what goes and what stays. No one else should tell you what to write. They can make suggestions, but you make decisions.

I got some good advice early on when learning to crit which I think stands to me (from people at sites like Notebored and Liberty Hall, a family of writers for whom I'm like the prodigal son in act one of the stage play these days!)- point out the good things as well as the bad. It's not sugar coating a crit. It's common sense really, to let someone know what IS working for you as a reader rather than just what is not. And that's the other thing. When you give a crit, it's only your opinion. Very important to you, sure, but not necessarily right. You're a reader. Not a God of Literature descending from on high to pass on your limitless divine knowledge of how the written word works.

Yes. I am a bit cross. Did you notice that?

I remember getting crits like this when I started out and to be honest they almost put me off writing altogether. You know the type of things. Little snide comments that actually have nothing to do with craft and everything to do with putting people down. "What's the point of this sentence?", "God, your protag is an idiot!", "Well its obvious that you've never experienced this yourself, isn't it?"  (Yes, these are all paraphrasing a crit I got once and they are not so far from the truth. Can't tell the truth because I deleted the sucker!)

So to my friend, if she read this, as we said the other night - open a bottle of wine, chin up, carry on. To the negative one, my friend is going to prove you SO wrong. And to everyone else sorry for ranting.

What are your experiences? C'mon and share. Make us all feel better. The more bitter and twisted the better. :D

Comments

[enticing-thorn.livejournal.com]

My creative writer lecturer put down on a review i wrote "you completely missed the point of the novel" because it was a book he loved (we had to do the review on a book he'd read) and i hated it because it was constant listing with a smattering of emnotions in between. I've never wanted to throw a book against a wall before but that book did it in 6 pages.

I really don't like that lecturer he'll say something like "Oh i really liked this piece" we'll all critique it, point out inconsistancies etc, then he'll go "Right! you should cut that line" (usually the one everyone else loved) "that doesn't sound right, cut out all these adverbs, this bit needs less whatever... etcetcetc" basically he usually rips the sh*t out of them. And that's on the ones he LIKES.

[tchernabyelo.livejournal.com]

There are as many styles of critiquing as there are critiquiers; and critiqueing itself is something that has to be "learned". The critter you describe is certainly not unique.

I don't have the time or energy to crit in as much detail as I used to when I started out. I don't do line-by-line crits these days (as well as time issues, I tend to feel that line-by-line crits should only apply at the very final, polished stage of a story, once the underlying structure is sound - why polish the fascia of a building until the foundations are properly set?). But in one way my critting hasn't changed at all, and it's this.

Honesty.

I believe one should be honest in critiques. Not unkind, but honest. If there are good things about the story, say so. If there are bad things about the story, identify and explain them. But always remember the subjectivity. No author in the world - no matter how feted, no matter how popular - is beyond some reader saying "oh, God, I hate that stuff" (I dislike the work of Stephen King, J K Rowling, Dan Brown - wouldn't have pubilshed a word of them, if I were an editor).

From the point of view of receiving a critique, you have to decide what to accept and what to reject. This also comes with experience. I have lost track of the number of times on some sites where a newbie writer posts something up, and then the moment they get ONE critique, they reqork it, and then they get comments on that, andthey rework again, and so on and so forth. They revise, revise, revise... to a single set of comments.

This is stupid.

Wait until you get a bunch of comments. Look at the sort of comments those people make in other critiques, as well (this is the joy of places like Liberty Hall - you learn what critiquers are perceptive or useful in certain areas). If one person says the story is slow, don't wory too much unless they are an expert on pacing. If five people say the story is slow, then listen to them.

It takes a long, long time to learn both how to critique and how to analyse what critiques are saying. I've been at LH for well over two years and I'm still learning some aspects of those skills.

Going to the personal anecdote level, my favourite was a critique I got from Hatrack once. I posted up the beginning of a story which (VERY unusually for me) was hard SF, and advertised as such. One of the people who volunteered to read the story sent back a fairly harsh critique... but then said "I don't read hard SF because I don't like it".

Needless to say, I paid little attention to her comments, except where they were mirrored by other critiques.

[(Anonymous)]

I had to post as Anonymous, because I'm not an LJ user, so it's Lucinda from RD. I don't think I've ever had a "mean" critique like the one you're talking about. I had some that were very blunt and rubbed me the wrong way, but none that I think was intentionally mean.
I used to be a member of a large critique circle that included writers all of genres. You couldn't post work for critique until you had earned enough points from critiquing other work. There were some writers that, IMO, would critique everything just to the get the points. The worst critique I had was from a young man, who wrote Sci-Fi, and I wondered if he was even out of high school. He clearly had the usual, stereotypical view of romance novels, because he told me just how "stupid" it was. In his case, I considered it ignorance—not meanness. Nevertheless, it was a learning experience and that's what participating in critiques is supposed to be.
I think the experience your friend had was with someone who thinks she knows it all and that everyone should write exactly the way she writes. There's a good place for those kind of critiques. It's called the Recycle Bin.

[(Anonymous)]

I am always inclined to believe there's an element of jealousy involved when crits go bad like this. A sense of, "Oh, crap, she's got way more talent than I do, but I can't admit that to anyone, quick, tear it down, tear it down!" I don't think it's always quite that deliberate or conscious -- but sometimes it is.

I wrote a pretty powerful dramatic stage play while I was in college, and the theatre deptartment produced it. People loved it. They cried, they offered me counseling, they shared their stories. The local Children's Services board videotaped it to use as a training film. (Just a note -- don't write about child abuse if you're not willing to hear a lot more about it!)

My mother came to see it. After the play, her comment -- the only comment she ever made about my writing at all -- was, "I think you should write comedies instead."

Uhhhhhh ...

The up-side of that comment, which it took me years to get to, is that no matter what anyone says now about my writing, they'll never be able to cut me to the bone the way she did.

Good luck to your friend!

Lyra Marlowe

Rough critiques

[(Anonymous)]

Once after a critique group, one of my CPs called me and asked if I was alright. She felt my pages got totally ripped apart that night and felt awful for me. She wanted to assure me that I only needed a couple of changes in her opinion and basically wanted to keep me from throwing the whole darn thing into the fire. I do admit, I was stinging a little, but the core of the comments I got were actually really good. Maybe I'm weird, I like to get hit in the head. Nothing short of pain will get me to revise.

As someone who likes getting harsher critiques I do recognize there's a line between being constructive and being mean. For me the line is to critique the work and not the writer. Like you said, you returned the ms with lines all over it too, but the way you did it allowed your friend to use the comments to improve her work. A person who demoralizes someone because it's "for their own good" doesn't sound like they they have the ultimate goal of improving the work in mind. I guess it comes down to chemistry -- find the CPs that work and hang onto them.

-Chi

[rflong.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you tchern, but then again, honesty isn't mean. You can be completely honest with someone without being unpleasant about it. Especially as we're meant to be writers and all! :D

I've received harsh critiques which didn't upset me. LH is such a great place for critiques and learning craft. And oh boy, I had some doozies from Hatrack in my time there! :D

You're right of course, with crits, the majority opinion rules.

[debbiemumford.livejournal.com]

I was in a face-to-face crit group for a long time as a brand new writer and I developed a thick skin. This has stood me in good stead when my editor sends me a redlined mss to refine. BUT...the crits were ALWAYS about what I'd written, NEVER about me. Personal attacks were not tolerated and should never be accepted. Tell your friend to let the crit slide and not to accept offers for "help" from that person again.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Hi Lyra,

lovely to see you here.

And ouch, on the comment.

I know someone who wrote a novel which contained a character dealing with childhood abuse. Her brother spent ages going around to everyone who would listen saying "I don't know where she got all that from! Not in our family! She's making it all up."

:D Yes... fiction... :D

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Hi Lucinda,

great to hear from you!

I don't really have experience of large critique groups like that. In principle its a great idea, but you'd have to question the worth of crits done for the sake of "points".

Recycle Bins are GOOD!

R

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Hi Debbie and thanks a million for stopping by and commenting.

Yep. I absolutely agree.

I still maintain though that a redlined ms from an editor is a very different kettle of fish. That's the professional side of the business. Crits like this are meant to be about helping each other (I thought. Maybe I'm naive).

She doesn't need this sort of "help".

R

[tchernabyelo.livejournal.com]

The rule of the majority is a good working yardstick but as with all rules, you have to know when to break it. Sometimes the majority can be wrong, but you have to be prepared to take the consequences of ploughing your own way.

One of the things that got me at Hatrack was the people who always complained that 13 lines wasn't enough of an intro to hook people, and anyway, real authors didn't write hooks. Indeed, one even posted up "his" first 13 which was actually from an Iain Banks novel, and laughed when some people critted it. But the "hook" Iain Banks has is only two words long. Same with Stephen King. Once you have a name, then you don't need hooks. But "Brian Dolton"? Not a reader hook. Not much of an editor hook, though there are probably two or three I could name now who WILL perk up when they see something of mine come over the transom - and if I can get that number up to half-a-dozen, then ten...

I'm digressing.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Digression is all part of why we are here Brian!

More than two or three by my reckoning. :D

[nakedshadows.livejournal.com]

What she did was mean - no two ways about it.

Funnily enough, last night I was reading a case where a judge for a contest had marked up a story and made offhanded suggestions: http://www.kelleyarmstrong.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=17;t=21217

How strange, the way people act. :shakes head:

[(Anonymous)]

This happens even with long time CPs. I usually warn people who I read and who read me if I'm PMSing or in a bad place.
Often, I make comments and don't REALIZE I'm being a little harsh.
But the same is true the other way. I've had crits from people I respect and thought "Um no." The great thing is that I've learned what is "right" in my own work and what isn't.
New writers don't have that yet. And I didn't when I was new.
*shrugs* I try and keep an open mind about this stuff. Oh, and rant and rave to another author I trust.
I once cried because of a Romance Diva contest critique. But that Diva wasn't being mean.
Hope your friend takes that crit with a pound of salt.

[will-couvillier.livejournal.com]

I look forward to line crits of my stuff. I am a part of an on-line crit that does more for me than I do for it; some of us are professors, some editors, a publisher, and all more versed in structure and grammar level knowledge. I can only offer intermediate structure comments, so I have to got to the big picture side, and Ask The Questions. But, I like the shred. A new writer would have adjusting to do, and the faster the skin thickens the better, because as you advance, those deep crits are more important. After time you get the feel for a good story. Thats's when the fine tuning is huge.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

I love line crit of my stuff too. But its different when its from people you trust and respect, people who know know are being honest and helpful, rather than shredding for the sake of shredding. I like to shred. I send back ms's COVERED in red. I tried using green. It looked silly. Red is the biz. But I don't think that its up to critquers to toughen up new writers, particularly when they don't know that writer.

*flounce* *sigh* It's so hard to get good help these days! :D *j*

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Ah but Divas do it with love! :D

[(Anonymous)]

I've had a run-in with mean critiquers. It was very early on in my writing but I was smart enough to figure out that some of the meanness stemmed from jealousy. We were writing the same genre and this other person obviously felt intimidated by my work.

I responded with an equally mean crit and we never spoke again. Was that wrong? LOL

-Kristen Painter
www.kristenpainter.blogspot.com

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Was that wrong? LOL

No. That was PERFECT!!! :D

[oatmellow.livejournal.com]

My very first crit was given to me by a writer who was just as new as I was. It was terribly mean. Given with the same "gotta develop thick skin" attitude. She ended the critique of my first 3 chapters by saying that if it had been a book she had picked up in the store, she would've thrown it against the wall before chapter 3.

I let her know that the point of critiquing was to help make it publishable, not to make sweeping hurtful generalizations.

FWIW, six years later, she's still writing the same book and I've gotten an agent and sold to a big NY publisher. You just have to learn from the experience and move on. I have. I'm not so sure she can say the same.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Now THAT's what I'm talking about!

I think I pointed her at your blog for inspiration, Mel.

[oatmellow.livejournal.com]

You did and she and I exchanged a few messages. I told her the same story. You can learn from every crit...even the mean ones. Just do what I did and show them up. :)

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Can I hear an Ay-men?! :D

[david-de-beer.livejournal.com]

I don't like writing ngative critiques, always worry about disillusioning someone from writing, but it's hard to balance it with honesty and optimism sometimes.

The only thing I worry about, genuinely worry about, when giving critiques is that I might accidentally do the opposite of helping, give someone bad advice that ends up putting them backwards rather than forwards. It happens, I've had crits like that and I've probably given them too.

It's a skill, like so much else, the giving and receiving of critiques. But, I do think there is a lot to be said for the idea that writers shouldn't remain with crit groups or workshops for more than 2 years either.
your mileage may vary and all that.

I'm kind of dropping away from most of the crit groups kind of thing; most of them, I end up being of more use to the group than they are to me (that sounds harsh, but true), and mostly crits started burning me out, badly. With one group, some of the people's crits they gave me I eventually learned was more a matter of "why did you do that? I've been told not to do it like that, so why did you?" in other words, because I've got more sales than them, they were critting me to ask questions. Which is fine, but they could have just asked, and I don't mind fumbling for an answer. But, the value to me decreased.
There was a time when I loved critting, but as I said, they burned me out eventually and I became listless even while critting, not a benefit to the writer at all.


I don't mind the occasional one now, but that's because I'm not doing it often, it's not a job anymore. If I help them, great, but there's always the ulcers that I'm actually fucking up their story if they follow my advice.

And yes, you can learn a lot from doing critiques. For a while, but if the group stays the same you stop learning and it becomes rote and routine.

Some people depend on crits too much, and that scares me; they shouldn't, they should be able to depend on their own judgement and not need the vindication of a crit group. Thing is, a crit group is geared to finding fault, even when trying to balance it with the positive. They read differently than a reader would, even than an editor would in many ways.

I don't know, some writers swear by crit groups and first readers, but many don't like them at all. It's that whole personal experience thing.
Crits (and let's assume they are good ones) can lift you, or defeat you.
Depends on the writer and the writing and that's not the same for anyone.

This is rather a more complicated matter than a quick comment can fit, but it'll have to do for now:)

Ok I have no idea how this works

[(Anonymous)]

Lets see, to start I'd like to say as a CP I am always right. It's just up to my partner to realize that. *G* Secondly, I just did a crit for someone and I was deathly afraid that you were about to talk about me. LMAO Talk about paranoia... But, alas, I never say anything personal about the author.

Which is what I think makes the difference between a crappy critique and a good one. Even if the entire book is filled with red marks, you make it personal when you make comments like that. it's not like I've never said... hey look, this is a newbie mistake watch for it. But, I've never done something like what you described to another person. It isn't nice. On the otherhand my mouth gets away with me at times and I've made a statement or two similar to what you're describing. I say it in a way to make them realize that look, it's ok, it happens at this and this stage of life, whatever. I still end up feeling like an ass though. I'm sorry your friend got an ugly crit. If she can't work past the other person's way of putting it to see if there any gold statements in there, then I totally agree with, thanks and move on. I've had crits come back that were totally off the wall of who I am as a writer that they were deleted without further reading. Good luck to your friend. It's nice to see that at least two out of the three are being helpful.

[wolf-dude64.livejournal.com]

Critiquing is a skill in itself. I know that when I first started at Hatrack I probably didn't help my fellow writers much. Right or wrong, I was doing it to learn how to critique and improve my own writing in the process.

Writing is such a hard, often-times lonely business. I sometimes wonder if people give harsh critiques just to make an impression.

Anyway, honesty is key and giving your impression as a reader, not a stellar writer trying to pass on your wealth of knowledge. I try very hard to turn on my reader mind when I critique someone else.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Thanks David

Thing is, a crit group is geared to finding fault, even when trying to balance it with the positive.

Well, yes, when its set up that way. But for example my crit group always seems to find the good as well. We aren't a cheer squad by any means, but its a very rare piece of writing where anyone can honestly say I totally and utterly hated this and can find no redeeming feature whatsoever!

Re: Ok I have no idea how this works

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Whos this?!Lets see, to start I'd like to say as a CP I am always right. It's just up to my partner to realize that. *G* It sounds like me? *g*

Yes Captain Paranoia is alive and well in the writing world. When I first got the PM I went "Oh no! What have I said???"

It's the personal comments that are the problem. Learning curve, I guess, but when you deliver honest, and hopefully helpful, well intentioned crits its a bit of a shock the first time you get one of these babies.

My friend is over it and delighted with the support she is getting. :D

I just realised I'd better say she is a real friend. Not me in disguise! LOL!

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Couldn't agree more Dude!

[david-de-beer.livejournal.com]

>when its set up that way

well, yes, but that's not entirely what I mean. It's, hmm, not sure how to put this, it's like often critiques point out something that would actually pass unnoticed for most readers.
It's an overly critical tendency to the reading.
does that make sense? not sure how to phrase it, I'll know it when I see it is all:)

it's not so much about how the group is set up (most groups do flourish by making a point of having positive commentary as well, and it's a good thing), it's the concept of critiquing itself. It's different from reading.
Sometimes it catches mistakes, and sometimes it emphasizes "flaws" which actually aren't.

[gabriel-writes.livejournal.com]

Sheesh.

Angry crit time again.

When I put on my crit hat, I don't look to whether or not I LIKE the story, as much as what does and doesn't make any sense. Grammatical questions, info dumps, and word repetititons all come into play when I pick apart a story.

Usually I've got a list of questions that I feel need answered and I can honestly say that there has only been a few times where I actually dreaded doing the task set before me. And that hasn't happened in a long time now.

I've declined crit offers from folks who I think are itching for a fight.

My most brutal crit came from an up and coming pro. Pubs in World's Best and the like. As I am fond of saying, it left scorch marks, BUT, they were not undeserved, not when I looked back. I learned more from that crit than the previous years of study. Like others have mentioned, it was all about the story, and what I should look at to not make the same mistakes again.

It was never about me personally, but the words on the page.

What I insist on, is if there is a negative commentary, you have to explain why something struck you as wrong. Does it contradict something written in a previous paragraph, or is there a shift going on that perhaps the author wasn't aware about.

Gah, as you well know, I've had my share of bogus stuff, we all have. Tell your friend I wish her well, and if you'd like, I could take a look at it.

[rflong.livejournal.com]

You're a star, but I think its just about done now. Looking great btw.

Yeah, sometimes you just have to decline the "offer". :D

[clhollandwriter]

When I was doing creative writing at uni one of my lecturers was a mean critter. He'd always tell you what was bad, never good, and he'd never tell you how to fix it. Once he shredded someone's story in front of the whole class and reduced her to tears.

I didn't write for about a year after I left uni, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I know I can be a little blunt when I'm critting - I tend to call a spade a spade - but I *always* try to flag up something positive. Shredding does nothing but destroy the confidence of someone who (if they're a newbie) probably doesn't have much to start with. Or it alienates potential critters of your own work.

As for critters' opinions, I tend to go with the majority approach: that is, if multiple critters flag up the same things I'll look at what's causing the issue. If a critter says something I disagree with, I'll look at it but won't feel any obligation to act on it unless I spot what they mean. Sometimes a critter just won't get what you're trying to do, and that's not always because of a fault with the writing. They could be distracted, or outside of their genre, or whatever.

But there's never any excuse to just be mean. It won't make you any more likely to sell anything.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling now!

[rflong.livejournal.com]

Rambling is good. It's my excuse!

You need to talk to enticing thorn re mean creative writing lecturers in college. Girls, met each other! :D

I was SO lucky with my CW lecturer in college, William McIlvaney. That said the course was only for 6 months but it was a buzz.

[clhollandwriter]

This particular lecturer didn't get his contract renewed, he was that bad. There were others that were awful in different ways: as a tutor for my novel writing dissertation they gave me....a poet! Needless to say I rarely bothered to go and see her, unless it was required.